Why I don't like Perks

DeathpactDeathpact Posts: 29Member
Hello Everyone !

I don't like perks !
I think they are useless in making the game more fun and the runs more purposeful
I mean the fighting in space and exploring is by no means more fun with a high end ship/ pilot than without.
The perks system just feels like grinding and an easy / fake way to make the game last longer with the same content.
It is not in the Roguelike spirit.
What Roguelikes are about is git gud if you want to go further and the learning curve / difficulty needs to be balanced accordingly. You don't get to go further if you keep sucking at the game just because you played enough to amass enough gold to make the game too easy for your ship (not for yourself)

So in the beggining because you are bad and your ship is bad and after a wile the first levels feel too simple because you got better and your ship too.

I believe it make the game's balance less interesting / Dynamic. Instead of balancing the ennemies VS players skill it has to be balanced vs the perks too. So without perks it might be impossible to win wile it could feel too simple with full perks...

I think Perks are lost opportunity for ship equipment diversity : The sensor upgrade that lets you have more info on the map could be a bonus you pick up and install on your shield. The Relations with GB could be gotten through missions/ saving their ships from an attack etc... Having room for one more secondary weapon could be made during the run in a service station etc...

Comments

  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    edited April 2017
    Hello @Deathpact ! Thank you for your post; I hear what you're saying, and I agree that this is a mechanic not overly common in roguelike games.

    However, I think we should look at one particular influence of Everspace's development.

    One of the games that influenced Everspace is known as Rogue: Legacy, a 2D fantasy hack'n'slash roguelike platformer experience. At first it sounds like the only thing in common with this game is that it is a roguelike, but it goes beyond that.

    Through the game of Rogue: Legacy, the player collects Coins from a Castle and uses tem to acquire new artisans, classes, and upgrades. These coins must be spent before the next run, as any that are held onto when entering the Castle again will vanish. Enhancement-like items are acquired through challenges within the Castle's walls, aiding the player further for delving into it's secrets.

    The more the player unlocks, the more the player is capable of doing in any given run. This diversifies the game and builds up to an all-powerful character that is armed to the teeth.

    Everspace uses a similar mechanic of progression. I have been thoroughly playtesting the experience and can assure you the game is beatable without any Perks on Hard mode with at least the Interceptor and the Scout. (Gunship is very difficult without Perks, but I'm getting close and am confident those more skilled than myself could accomplish this feat.) I mention this to signify that, technically, Perks don't have to be obtained in order to complete the game. They are perks (literally) that add to your successive runs, not requirements.

    Putting the time and energy into the game to unlock all of the powerful Perks, Blueprints, and Enhancements does create more options for the player, opening up possibilities and creating an ease of access to areas too difficult before. I feel like this is healthy game design, as it directly rewards the player for their commitment.

    Something Rogue: Legacy did not have was Difficulty Selection. For a more challenging experience in Everspace, you can choose Hard mode. Or, if things are too difficult even from the very beginning, you can choose Easy mode. This is not a very roguelike mechanic either, but it's sure nice to have.

    Furthermore, if the game scaled it's difficulty along with how many Perks the player has, it's hard to say there's any real progression at all. If the player ship gains 5% more hullpoints, and all the enemies deal 5% more damage because of this change, is there really a difference?

    Everspace Perks were designed and implemented the way they are because they are meant to make a difference, helping the player progress.

    All in all, I think this mechanic is a matter of preference. Similar to you, I'm a huge advocate of the "git gud" design presented by more traditional roguelikes like FTL, Enter the Gungeon and Risk of Rain. But I enjoy Everspace because it brings fourth a progressive system that allows the player to "level up" in specific areas of their choosing to benefit them completely. And everyone loves leveling up. :smiley:

    All in all, if you enjoy gittin gud, you can do that in Everspace. If you enjoy leveling up and opening up possiblities, you can do that in Everspace, too.
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 121Member
    edited April 2017
    I too dislike how difficulty gets way down as we invest in more perks (and collect blueprints). I think perks should open new possibilities rather than be permanent buffs that makes things easier. As many players have proven, it is possible to finish a run without any perks (i'm not that skilled yet). Investing in perks only makes runs easier and easier to pull off. At some point perks makes things so easy we need a major blunder to not finish a run.



  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    edited April 2017
    Alright, I have a suggestion, though it is VERY bold and (if implemented) would very likely push back the release date.

    What if Perks always started blank every run, but were purchased at the end of every Sector? Costs of various Perks would have to be altered, but I think this presents solutions to some of the current progression issues and could do a lot of good by shaping your playthrough EVERY RUN.

    What are your thoughts?
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 121Member

    Alright, I have a suggestion, though it is VERY bold and (if implemented) would very likely push back the release date.

    What if Perks always started blank every run, but were purchased at the end of every Sector? Costs of various Perks would have to be altered, but I think this presents solutions to some of the current progression issues and could do a lot of good by shaping your playthrough EVERY RUN.

    What are your thoughts?

    That would be a massive change from how the game currently is, doubt the devs would gladly change their game this much. That said i would like to be able to buy/find perk like upgrades during the run. I don't think it should be limited to the end of the sector though.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    My suggestion for limiting the player to upgrade at the end of each Sector is vital to pace the player's upgrades. Perhaps this might not be enough, though...maybe they could also purchase Perks at Service Stations and/or Traders?
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 121Member

    My suggestion for limiting the player to upgrade at the end of each Sector is vital to pace the player's upgrades. Perhaps this might not be enough, though...maybe they could also purchase Perks at Service Stations and/or Traders?

    It would be nice to have traders trade in stuff we can't normally find elsewhere. Most of the time they don't have anything i want or need. If they were selling perk like upgrades (lasting only for the current run), we would now have the dilemma of choosing between upgrading for the current run or having a permanent upgrade at the end...
  • ROCKFISH_AndiROCKFISH_Andi Posts: 1,104Moderator
    Like @Giraffasaur pointed out, it was the plan from the start of the project to have a perk system close to Rogue Legacy. We were trying to make the game less frustrating in comparison to "truer" rogue-likes with real permadeath and thus appeal to a bigger audience. I think despite of the perks the main progress in the game still comes from getting skilled by playing and playing and "getting gud". However, the perk system has the effect that you immediately come back a little stronger and from what we've seen this seems to be a strong motivation for most people to have "that one more go".

    Having said all this, it was also our plan from the start to have a "harcdoce mode" with real permadeath. Unfortunately we did not have the time to work on it, yet. However we have added the hard difficulty in the meantime to give skilled players a bigger challenge and we still plan on implementing the hardcore mode. Most likely without any perks or the ability to just choose a few before each run and no permanent progression (meaning true permadeath). We're really looking forward to this ourselves.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    I'm really looking forward to Hardcore mode, as well. I think this will be the definitive roguelike experience that is being craved from the conversations happening here.

    Thank you for your post @ROCKFISH_Andi and the clarity it brings; I'm also glad the team doesn't have to rework the entire Perk system. :smiley:
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 121Member

    However, the perk system has the effect that you immediately come back a little stronger and from what we've seen this seems to be a strong motivation for most people to have "that one more go".

    Yeah, it has that effect. But one issue that comes with how the perks are set up is all the challenges of the game are gradually removed. We not only get more powerful, we also get more loot, can craft more stuff, know how hard areas are, if there is an anomaly, where to find traders and stations, get the chance of recovering previous run gears... All that eventually kills the fun of doing a run since we gradually have all the tools to overcome with ease any challenges the game throw at us.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    edited April 2017
    Foraven said:

    All that eventually kills the fun of doing a run since we gradually have all the tools to overcome with ease any challenges the game throw at us.

    I would like to stress that even a fully Perked-out, Enhancement-capped, Glyph-acquired, Loadout-unlocked, Blueprint-wielding completionist of a pilot will still find unexpected troubles on Hard mode. I have had runs get snubbed in early parts of Sector 3, and I've been plowed into the ground with unexpected challenges in Sector 6.

    Having everything available gives you a lot more tools at your disposal and does make runs easier, I can't argue with that. But from my own experiences I cannot say the challenge has diminished so much that it is no longer fun. I'm a very competitive person and love overcoming great odds, and Everspace's late-game still delivers.

    That said, I'm glad there will be the addition of Hardcore mode for an even greater challenge.

    I do have a potential suggestion, as well.
    This might sound a lot like the plans for Hardcore mode, so it might be a moot point...but I digress.

    In the hangar, on the difficulty selection screen, it would be really cool to have a tick box for "No Perks." This way, you could disable all your Perks without losing the progress you've made on your current save. There could be some kind of added bonus to this challenge to incentivize it's use, as well. Maybe it adds an additional 25% Credit bonus through the run, or maybe it gives you nothing but the satisfaction of a challenge.

    Just a thought.
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 121Member

    Having everything available gives you a lot more tools at your disposal and does make runs easier, I can't argue with that. But from my own experiences I cannot say the challenge has diminished so much that it is no longer fun. I'm a very competitive person and love overcoming great odds, and Everspace's late-game still delivers.

    Yeah, i know what you mean, even at medium there are times we can get run over despite having all the tools at our disposal. I don't consider myself good enough for the hard mode, my twitch skills are not up for it. What i argue about is the game offer us too many means to skip challenges, or craft our way out of it. Yeah, we can still screw up or get overwhelmed when we least expect it. But what i like is having to think, to make plans on how i'm going to tackle a problem. But a lot of it is lost once i can just craft whatever i need on the fly and have tools that can solve any problem without the need to struggle for it. Also, there is always a point where we can skip difficult areas because there is nothing we actually need from it.

  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    Foraven said:

    What i argue about is the game offer us too many means to skip challenges, or craft our way out of it. Yeah, we can still screw up or get overwhelmed when we least expect it. But what i like is having to think, to make plans on how i'm going to tackle a problem. But a lot of it is lost once i can just craft whatever i need on the fly and have tools that can solve any problem without the need to struggle for it.

    That is completely understandable...and what it sounds like Hardcore Mode will be providing. :smiley:
    Foraven said:

    Also, there is always a point where we can skip difficult areas because there is nothing we actually need from it.

    Yes, but I think that's fairly common in roguelikes due to the nature of randomly generated levels.
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 121Member


    That is completely understandable...and what it sounds like Hardcore Mode will be providing. :smiley:

    Hope so.

    Yes, but I think that's fairly common in roguelikes due to the nature of randomly generated levels.
    It's much more common to face unbeatable odds or lacking crucial resources than having the opportunities to skip unwanted challenges though.

  • DeathpactDeathpact Posts: 29Member
    Foraven said:

    Also, there is always a point where we can skip difficult areas because there is nothing we actually need from it.

    Yes, but I think that's fairly common in roguelikes due to the nature of randomly generated levels.

  • DeathpactDeathpact Posts: 29Member
    I would like to talk about FTL once more. You never skip any area, especialy in hard mode. Why ? because you are playing against the clock. And you need all the levels you can to amass more scrap more weapons etc... It is very rare to reach a "perfect state" in FTL at least in hard mode. I think it is one impoirtant way to keep tension from falling flat in the middle of the run. But that requires very much work on balance issues. And to accept that some runs will just fail.
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 121Member
    Deathpact said:

    I would like to talk about FTL once more. You never skip any area, especialy in hard mode. Why ? because you are playing against the clock. And you need all the levels you can to amass more scrap more weapons etc... It is very rare to reach a "perfect state" in FTL at least in hard mode. I think it is one impoirtant way to keep tension from falling flat in the middle of the run. But that requires very much work on balance issues. And to accept that some runs will just fail.

    Yeah, that's what is missing in Everspace. We have a clock to beat but no reason to milk every areas we go to once we have plenty of resources and the gears we need to beat the run.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    edited April 2017
    I can agree that at a certain point in the run everything becomes accessible, though one could argue the player put in the time and energy to acquire all those resources to get to that point.

    It's also possible to speedrun your way through the Sectors and get caught in a bind because the player didn't take the time scavenging for resources.

    THAT SAID, I think I may have another solution.
    Resources could be scaled depending on what Sector the player is in (similarly to FTL)? This way, you can spend time early to collect resources OR you can risk it to pick up greater number later. Strategy of exploration starts becoming a factor, and you can't get overpowered early (but still reap some nice benefits).
  • Mr. MagniloquentMr. Magniloquent Posts: 20Member
    I personally like how the game plays now. In the first few runs, the game can have a very steep learning curve. The perks act as an adequate carrot to work through that difficulty. To me, the rate of acquiring perks is fairly linear with the required skill to succeed in the game. They overall enhance the enjoyment of the game for me.

    This is particularly true with respect to devices. If you could only possess base energy capacity and regeneration rate, you wouldn't be able to use devices (let alone upgraded ones) without crippling your ability to do anything else. The fully upgraded crafting/resource perks are what make blueprints practical. Crafting is good because it provides incentive to explore, while simultaneously providing flexibility and consistency to the player.

    For the most part, I feel that all of the perks are very supportive of the game play design and work to both reward the player and enable pursuit of greater challenges in a well paced manner. By the time you have all the perks for at least one ship, you're almost assured to have become too skilled to play on normal. I consider myself to be very good at this game. Even fully upgraded--I need to pay attention on Hard and not be careless. It only takes one mistake. I like the perk system as is, and would be hesitant to alter it radically.
  • Ohlordlylord555Ohlordlylord555 Posts: 14Member
    There is nothing wrong with the Perk System. Everyone loves leveling up and being able to modify their ship to their needs an their own style of game play. Taking away anything at this point would Drastically change the game and would totally ruin it for me.

    Having Perks and being able to customize my ship before, during and after each run is apart of the replayability so changing any of that would make it less playable.

    I believe at this point and moving foward things only need to be added and upgraded. Too many unnecessary modifications and or any subtractions from the game would ruin the game.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat

    I believe at this point and moving foward things only need to be added and upgraded. Too many unnecessary modifications and or any subtractions from the game would ruin the game.

    I strongly agree.

    Though, I'm excited to see Hardcore Mode mix up the formula for more traditional roguelike enthusiasts, as well.
  • Ohlordlylord555Ohlordlylord555 Posts: 14Member
    Ooooh Yeah, Hardcore mode sounds very exciting and I can't wait for all the action to come. I love the idea of having different game modes to choose from.

    Hopefully it will be At Least 3 different modes to choose from.
  • troopitroopi Posts: 83Member
    When I started playing, even normal mode was too tough. I had to play some in easy mode, because dying after 3 or 5 areas was just too lacking in fun. And that's the reason I play any game. For fun. And I suppose many players are like that. So, if some find it easy to beat the game in normal mode, many will find it hard, even with all the perks. It's just human nature. We're all players, but not all have the same skills, the same reflexes, the same ability. Does that mean the weaker ones cannot play everspace because the game is only for hardcore players?
    I don't think so. The game, as it is, is perfectly shaped for a wide range of players (with more or less skill). And they all can have their share of fun. The only thing really missing is the hardcore mode with permadeath, for those players that are so good, that everything else feels easy for them.

    Cheers.
  • WjndWalk3rWjndWalk3r Posts: 13Member
    I have a very simple solution for soft and hardcore here. How about we can choose to enable or disable each of every perk we had, upgraded before (if you not purchased it, you cannot turn it on or of). For normal people, we can enjoy the game as it is. If anyone find out the Hard mode still not enough for them, just disable whatever perk you think it's OP or make things is easy. It's make it enjoyable for all kind of player when Rockfish have plan for an Hardcore mode, and you guys can still improve the perk system to balance the game for all people.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat

    How about we can choose to enable or disable each of every perk we had, upgraded before (if you not purchased it, you cannot turn it on or of). For normal people, we can enjoy the game as it is. If anyone find out the Hard mode still not enough for them, just disable whatever perk you think it's OP or make things is easy. It's make it enjoyable for all kind of player when Rockfish have plan for an Hardcore mode, and you guys can still improve the perk system to balance the game for all people.

    I think having the ability to activate/deactivate ANY Perk could get tedious, and may also cause some players grief if accidentally deactivating Perks before runs (or forgetting they are deactivated). It might be better if the activation/deactivation was a single selection...but we might be getting ahead of ourselves with Hardcore mode in the works, anyway.

    All in all, I do like the continued suggestions and the conversations that follow. You guys are rockstars.
Sign In or Register to comment.