Ships seem rather poorly thought out and balanced or described.. namely gunship

OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
edited June 5 in GAMEPLAY
Okay don't get me wrong, I like the game. I just think it really has unrealized potential. I'm a little disappointed that this is the "1.0" release when it seems it could have used some more tuning. And I hope more content is added in the future, too, but I'm not going to go into that further.

Anyway soo.. I seem to be seeing a lot that people unlock the Gunship first, thinking that'd be good.
It's not.
At least not to start with.
To start with you have terrible energy management, and you can so easily die from being swarmed. Heck.. you can just go into a room with two colonial sentries and lose half your health so fast.
It's a big, slow target with no means of escape except.. I guess the Energized Boost.
Of all my friends and streamers I checked out, their first impression was that it's awful. Though I figured it could be good and it can, which I'll get to.

Then you have the Scout.
It feels like cheating.
Surrounded by enemies? Cloak.
Didn't notice there were sentries or turrets? Cloak.
Warship jumps on you? No problem still, cloak and jump out.
Cloak is on cooldown? Shock Pro makes it so easy to dodge stuff.
Oh and it's fast. Speed is so important, it becomes immediately obvious. You want to complete runs fast. Get those enhancements fast. Scout does this. Gunship is so slow.

Like.. what? It's like Scout was made to fit into how the game plays ideally. And Gunship is... like something from another game.
Which is sad, because Drones seem like they'd be fun. It has that unique turret too. And front shield..
Except they get swallowed by black holes.
And they seem to randomly disappear when you never encountered any enemies since you last launched them.
And gas is so limited. And while you can Mainframe Override enemy drones to get ones for free that jump with you... this only works for craftable ones and I can't keep those neat Okkar ones this way.

The main point is that the Scout can get out of any sticky situation, like it's cheating. With the Gunship... you just die, and there was nothing you could do. Your frontal shield and/or energized boost was on cooldown. Or heck you boosted away but there's long range stuff stopping your jump anyway. The Scout can always cloak and jump.
Just seems to me like the Gunship needs a major rebalance.
I was able to beat the game with it using Ancient Weapon, Leach, the +40% damage, and using Jump Overrides to make sure I never got stuck in a bad situation... but it wasn't easy-mode like Scout.
And the Gunship does scale up better with upgrades. The armor upgrade is great. The more energy great as always. Improved drones, even if they're kind of meh, it's still a big improvement. But when you unlock it as your first ship with that first 10k? Oh my god, it's so awful.

Comments

  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 984Moderator, Space Cat
    edited June 5
    I view the different ships as different challenges, similar to that of FTL. Each ship is quite different and should be played using different playstyles. I certainly agree that the Scout is the easiest due to it's mobility fitting the Everspace formula for success, and the Gunship is the most difficult due to it's lack of mobility.

    But while movement is a strong factor between these vessels, I don't think modifying maneuverability is the solution.

    One idea (that I was initially against, but has been growing on me) is the idea of changing the Gunship's Turret to a PASSIVE DEVICE, always being on, freeing up energy to use for boosting/evasion while still dishing out some serious firepowe, especially in close-quarters (Colonial Turrets = easy resources).

    If this change were to happen with the Gunship's Turret, I do think the damage values may need to be scaled back (albeit slightly), perhaps around 15-20% of their current values.

    I noticed you didn't have any suggestions pertaining to topic. Did you have some ideas you think may help push the Scout/Gunship in a more suitable position?

    Sorry about the ninja edits;posted before editing down!
  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    I thought of it that way, yeah. That the Gunship was basically "super hard mode". But it ends up being impossible when the certain culmination of random situations happen instead of just hard.
    And Scout.. is easy mode, even on hard difficulty.
    But I don't think that's very good. Difficulties should be difficulties. Ships should be a different way to play. One ship shouldn't be super easy mode and another near impossible if you're not lucky.


    One idea (that I was initially against, but has been growing on me) is the idea of changing the Gunship's Turret to a PASSIVE DEVICE, always being on, freeing up energy to use for boosting/evasion while still dishing out some serious firepowe, especially in close-quarters (Colonial Turrets = easy resources).

    I was thinking the same, that the turret should be its own separate slot that doesn't take up a device slot and is always on.

    But that still doesn't really do anything about the major problem that Gunship has, where you can get stuck in a situation where you can't warp out.
    The Scout can cloak and warp easy.
    Intercepter, while a bit harder, it is manuverable that you can generally dodge fire by spiraling (especially with Time Extender) to ensure you can warp out. Gunship on the other hand just can't dodge fire the same way, and getting hit resets the jump spooling.

    I'm not sure what to suggest there, though. Just identifying the problems. There is the Berserker enhancement that does allow the Gunship to jump out by boosting and being invincible, but it has that hefty drawback to it.

    Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is that I REALLY, REALLY think the boost multiplier on Scout and Gunship should be swapped.
    Gunship can be slow in normal maneuvering, sure, but it should at least boost quickly. Scout at 2x base and Gunship at 3x base for boost would give them more similar boost speeds which makes sense to me.
    Using Berserker like I mentioned is super hard on gunship because it becomes hard to scavenge fuel in time in that 40 second timer.

    A simple solution would just be to give the Gunship some passive that makes it not rock about when hit, and makes it so its jump spooling isn't interrupted by damage.

    So yeah, those two changes would be pretty small and greatly improve balance imo.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 984Moderator, Space Cat
    I restored your post; sorry about that, seems you hadn't been verified yet so the spam filter thought you were being naughty. Fixed!

    But yes, you've got some good points here, some that I've been mulling over myself that you've convinced me to present to the team. Thank you for your feedback!
  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    edited June 7
    It uh, apparently deleted the other one I wrote in its place that was probably more clear. idk. I had 3 changes listed out in for Gunship and Scout more clearly I think.
    Mostly the same stuff, but more clearly formatted I think.

    Oh, I also forgot to mention that I really think using mainframe override on non-craftable drones should still give you them when you jump. That they should count toward your drone count. Currently if you, say, have no drones and mainframe override a craftable one like the combat drone, it increases your drone count in the upper left. And it jumps with you. Doing that with an Okkar drone does not, but I REALLY think it should.
    Maybe Beeline should affect drones, too?
    Also in hard mode, drones become far worse due to enemy accuracy. They just instantly blow up. Maybe make hard mode have enemies prioritize shooting the player and ignoring drones?

    But I'll repeat, I think the 3 points I laid out that I think would be somewhat simple adjustments that'd greatly improve balance and fun were..
    1. Make damage not rock and shake the Gunship, and not take away time from jump spooling. This is the biggest reason that it's garbage... Scout can ensure a jump out, and Intercepter roughly can (strafing in a spiral with time extender and such), but Gunship is to unmanuverable and slow for this and really needs this change imo.
    2. Swap Gunship and Scout boost multiplier so that their boost speeds are roughly similar.
    3. Make Cloak deal like 25% hull damage when you jump while cloaked or something. I like cloak and don't want to see it completely nerfed into the ground, but lets be real: it's broken and easy mode.

    And in regards to number 2, it may make sense to have the boost on Gunship be more forward-bias while intercepter and scout can boost diagonally better, but it does not make sense to have it go so slowly in a straight line. Since it's a multiplier, and its base speed is already so low, its boost is stupidly slow.
  • HratgardHratgard Posts: 7Member
    Drones are stupid and dies way to random. The crash into stuff and die. They fly into your line of fire and die.
    You launch an Arc 9000 and KILL your own drones instant.. Drones need to made invulnerable to any and all forms of Friendly Fire and collision damage.

    A 4th Ship - Hangar Ship. Only a couple of Automated Turret and 6+ drones? No front firing guns. Need a special edition - free - drone that does mining and destroying crates for you.

    Might be boring, might be relaxing! :P
  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    @Hratgard I was thinking something like a "science ship" would be neat. Something with low hull, shields, but lots of tools like that. Maybe a modifier to increase device ranges. But I don't think they're adding new ships unless it's an expansion or DLC.

    But that's more in regards to that I was really thinking the whole "gunship" in this game was a poor concept that doesn't fit with how the game works, given how bad it is, and that a science ship type thing may have been better. But I mean, Gunship is fixable, just still kind of eh.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 984Moderator, Space Cat
    edited June 7
    Gunship is a lot more fun since it's initial launch in v0.3.

    While it suffers a bit without having many Perks at the start, the Gunship can become an absolute beast when most of it's Perks are gained.

    Though, it does seem to require certain Devices in order to be effective (Energized Boost and Front Shield Generator are must-haves, for instance). There are some ideas being tossed around to see what can be done about the Gunship's longevity.

    All in all, I like the added challenge of completing runs with the Gunship. It's a lot more satisfying when you can pull off a win. But in comparison to the other ships, I would agree it's probably the weakest.
  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    Yes I can agree there that it becomes better when it's faster, has that extra armor, enhancements, etc. Really garbage when it's first unlocked, but becomes better.

    Still never nearly as good as Scout at the moment, though.
    In the end, the Scout is nigh-immortal, able to get out of any situation, at least if you have jump stabilizers. Even if you don't, you can usually ensure that you can kill that jump stopping frigate or to capture that swarmed point with cloak.
    With Gunship if you can't just straight up kill everything, you're screwed. If a bunch of units spawn and stick on you, you can't jump out because of their shooting you.

    Again though, I don't think a certain ship should be considered an extra challenge. Especially when it's the one that people think to unlock first. That's what difficulty level and various enhancements are for. Gunship needs to be better balanced, and the biggest thing is how hard it can be to jump out of a system when you simply can't fight yourself out (especially when warship comes in)
  • Mr. MagniloquentMr. Magniloquent Posts: 18Member
    It is correct to say that the Scout is the best suited for the game's challenges. It is incredibly fast and maneuverable, has the best sensors, and cloak is a perfect panic button that extends your time in each zone. While cloak is excellent, it's the speed/maneuverability which makes it the best ship.

    Most of the gunships problems would go away if they'd allow it to have full shields. While it would still be sub-optimal, it wouldn't be so painfully inferior. The compromise in beta was to give it the front shield generator, which helps--but only really does the ship become playable when you've used your other ships to upgrade it. I view the gunship as an end-game challenge mode. It has its virtues, but it's not a serious ship for high score completion runs.
  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    Yeah, the no-shields thing seemed like such a forced concept that doesn't fit in well with how the game works. Like the game was designed around shields, then they added this ship without them.

    But... I don't see that changing. There's still other things that could change to improve it.
    Instead of it being "hard mode" (especially since it seems to be the first ship people want to unlock without knowing Scout is so much better), "hard" could be made more difficult and Scout nerfed a bit.
  • invenioinvenio Posts: 86Member
    I'm going to disagree a little with the premise that the gunship is inferior. I think it all depends on how you set up your equipment and play style. With the correct setup, I actually find it the easiest. Put on ancient weapon, low profile, and the glyph that gives you 50% hull at the start of every level. I almost never die doing a complete playthrough on hard setting. Put this same combo on the scout, now that's a challenge.
  • arowzarowz Posts: 5Member
    I disagree. I feel the gunship is the strongest ship. Sure, you can be pretty slippery with the scout, but you're constantly playing on the wire. One false move, like if your ship's cloak is down, out of energy etc. and you can be destroyed in seconds. Compare the gunship with its huge armor HP tank to sustain you when it hits the fan.

    I start with loadout C giving me beam laser M3. Once I get 3 range mods on that weapon, I've won the game. Most fights are me just holding the reverse button while picking things off one at time. If things get too heavy, I have so many slots for secondaries and devices that I can weather any storm. Heavy missiles are dirt cheap and make incredibly short work of pretty much any enemy. by Sector 4 I always have a full rack of torpedos and at least 1 ARC on deck. As for devices, I generally don't even go with the turret as it seems unreliable and unnecessary... while I do love the missile turret, it has triggered G&B hostility on way too many occasions. Instead, I'll run front shield generator and time extender each with 3 energy consumption mods. This allows me to use them as often as needed. Throw in the speed boost device and a tractor beam and I'm good to go. The last device slot can be a turret or whatever you want.

    As for other primaries, I'm a big fan of a range boosted flak cannon. Typically makes short work of groups of swarmers.

    As for drones, I'll usually just have 1 anti-missile drone out there as drones seem to die pretty quick, making combat drones expensive.

    My typical runs have me at 25/25 nanobots by Sector 2, with all new nanos going to repair my hull on the spot. In terms of consumables, with all the slots it's easy to have a damage booster, jump stabilizer, nano injector and some drones on standby.

    In sum, when I fly the gunship I jump into a zone confidently and methodically and aggressively kill all enemies, whereas with the smaller ships each jump is a stressful game of cat and mouse.
  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    It does get stronger with unlocks and enhancements. I definitely wouldn't call it the strongest, still.
  • DravinianDravinian Posts: 1Member
    Let me put this into context, I have been playing the game for only a couple of days, and not extensively.

    I was rather disappointed with the ships to be honest, you slog away for awhile trying to save up £10k expecting a difference, and having bought the second small ship, the weapons are rubbish on it and I seem worse off...it does somewhat come across as irritating and has spoiled the gameplay for me.

    Now I wonder what the rewards actually are for playing within the game. If saving up for that amount of gameplay time to get a better ship, only to find out it isn't a better ship and in fact is in many ways worse, then you are left feeling let down by the experience.

    If, as mentioned by a poster above, it is just a different way to play the game...why is it locked to begin with, as if it is a reward for playing? Why not simply have them open and let the player know that these are the 3 ships you can play that offer a different style of play, but not necessarily enhanced play between them?

    I am not sure I will continue with the game, as I am not sure that spending more time is actually going to enhance the game in any meaningful way in the future...the 'upgrades' are so tiny that they barely seem to make an impact, and I was really looking forward to getting a better ship and being able to survive longer and take out more enemies, maybe even a corvette! Now I know that the ships aren't actually any better, I do not feel that the time spent on upgrades is worth it, as I don't feel that they are going to let me take on corvettes anytime within the next decade.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 984Moderator, Space Cat
    edited June 18
    Hey @Dravinian , thank you for your feedback.
    Dravinian said:

    Now I wonder what the rewards actually are for playing within the game. If saving up for that amount of gameplay time to get a better ship, only to find out it isn't a better ship and in fact is in many ways worse, then you are left feeling let down by the experience.

    If, as mentioned by a poster above, it is just a different way to play the game...why is it locked to begin with, as if it is a reward for playing? Why not simply have them open and let the player know that these are the 3 ships you can play that offer a different style of play, but not necessarily enhanced play between them?

    It is a very common mechanic for roguelikes to provide new ways to experience the procedurally randomized content through unlockables. Looking at Rogue: Legacy, FTL, or Binding of Isaac shows some of the most powerful forms of replayability are giving the player different ways to play again by putting new ship loadouts, fighter classes or playable characters behind achievable goals.

    I can definitely understand if you're not a fan of this mechanic, especially if you aren't enjoying the core gameplay loop that goes along with it.

    It does seem that the majority of the player base feels that the Scout (the second ship) is the best ship in the game. But, with most roguelikes, it requires a learning curve in order to maximize the full potential. If you're strugging with using the ship, I might recommend trying it out on Easy mode and exploring different options. If you're not enjoying run after run though, you might be right to sit it out until future free DLC comes into play to mix up the formula.

    Best of luck,
    Giraffasaur
  • invenioinvenio Posts: 86Member
    Dravinian said:


    I am not sure I will continue with the game, as I am not sure that spending more time is actually going to enhance the game in any meaningful way in the future...the 'upgrades' are so tiny that they barely seem to make an impact, and I was really looking forward to getting a better ship and being able to survive longer and take out more enemies, maybe even a corvette! Now I know that the ships aren't actually any better, I do not feel that the time spent on upgrades is worth it, as I don't feel that they are going to let me take on corvettes anytime within the next decade.

    I don't think you really get how this game works. The different ships are not "better or worse" per se. They are just different where they should alter your style of play. If you want a "better ship," you simply have to upgrade the ship you are using and use enhancements. If you goal is to "beat the game as fast as possible", you should fully upgrade one ship before starting to unlock/upgrade the others.

    At about 40 runs, you should have one ship maxed out and it will be powerful enough to kill any capital ship and beat the game. One upgrade has a small effect, but don't forget there are like 25 upgrades for each ship and each one of those can have multiple upgrade levels. So after 100 incremental small upgrades, the ship will be powerful. Also, how many glyphs have you unlocked? Those will also have a huge effect on gameplay.

    If you don't like this kind of gameplay, that's fine. Maybe it's just not for you. It's not designed to be beat on your first 3 tries. If after +40 runs you are not getting to the end, let us know as then you are probably doing something wrong.

  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    I've played them all close to maxed out. I've put quite a bit of time into this game. I like it a lot, which is why I'd like to see it improve. :) I'd be happy to buy an expansion/DLC if they also tuned the game better as well for the current content.

    With the Heavy, on hard, you'll fairly often run into situations where you just basically auto-die and there's nothing you can do about it.
    You get overwhelmed, and can't jump out since you can't jump while being shot.
    With the Scout, you can always use a jump stabilizer, cloak, and jump out from those situations no problem. It's literally easy-mode even on the hardest difficulty and even if you use enhancements that make the game harder.
  • WildMoustacheWildMoustache Posts: 1Member
    If you see you are overwhelmed, try to run using a TIme Extender. Dodging bullets won't be a problem anymore and the jump countdown is not slowed, it's an easy escape there.

    That said IMO the gunship is the most powerful ship and it was the first ship i used to complete hard mode. Make sure you pick the right stuff and it's REALLY a breeze: it's firepower is amazing if you get the devastator enhancement (and it's disadvantage is easily covered with a large energy pool and cheap energy injectors), it's tanky as -BEEP- and it has quite a weapon selection so you can always have the right tool for the job, and the extra turret for even more dakka.
    I rarely found myself overwhelmed, and it took two or more corvettes to force me on the run without me putting up a -BEEP- of a fight.
  • OshirigamiOshirigami Posts: 21Member
    Nope, time extender won't allow you to jump out in hard mode sector 6 sometimes.
  • ForavenForaven Posts: 116Member
    The biggest problem with the gunship is it is meant to be a tank, but due to the gameplay we have to avoid taking damage. One reason is the nanos supply is random thus we can't rely on it to repair each time we take damage, and the more damage we get to more likely some ship component will fail and make further fighting harder if not game ender.

    I believe the gunship needs a mean to repair itself outside the use of nanobots. We can't use it as a tank when we are afraid of taking damage. An auto-repair device we could use outside of combat would be nice, or a passive (but slow) self repair...
  • invenioinvenio Posts: 86Member
    Foraven said:



    I believe the gunship needs a mean to repair itself outside the use of nanobots. We can't use it as a tank when we are afraid of taking damage. An auto-repair device we could use outside of combat would be nice, or a passive (but slow) self repair...

    There are two options available for this already. One is the upgrade that gives you hull points for each enemy destroyed, and then the other which resets hull to 50% at the start of each area. Both work well with the gunship.

  • ForavenForaven Posts: 116Member
    invenio said:


    There are two options available for this already. One is the upgrade that gives you hull points for each enemy destroyed, and then the other which resets hull to 50% at the start of each area. Both work well with the gunship.

    Seem cool but not something you usually have when you first unlock the gunship. The gunship requires an unhealthy amount of upgrades to become viable, unlike the other two ships that can do alright out of the box (especially the scout)..

  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 984Moderator, Space Cat
    Foraven said:

    The gunship requires an unhealthy amount of upgrades to become viable, unlike the other two ships that can do alright out of the box (especially the scout).

    The Gunship is being evaluated and will likely receive a buff in the next update.
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