Some loadouts makes things too easy...

ForavenForaven Member Posts: 121
I have been playing this game for quite a while and i must say there needs to be some balancing done with how cost effective certain weapons / devices choices for our fighters. For example, gatlings, pulse lasers, fusion blasters, scatter guns all seem well balanced and requires some skills to use (the AI is quite adept at dogfighting), and there are quite a few ways we can upgrade them to suits our needs. The coilgun used to be a great weapon due to it's range, instant hit and accuracy, but now it's power usage and lowered accuracy makes it far less useful (it needs upgrades, but then it drains energy too fast). On other hand, we have clearly superior weapons like the beam lasers, shock rifles and flak guns that can make short work of multiple enemies in a short amount of time, and unlike the first few weapons named, the AI has no clue what to do when we attack with theses and has virtually no defense against them.

Secondary wise, missiles are very good at wreaking AIs, very few enemies have anti-missiles and none of them knows how to dodge. Heavy missiles and Corrosion missiles are especially effective, and the ARCs just melt everything (and seem to be a rather common drop). At some point, when we have more plentiful resources, spamming secondaries just makes many encounters trivial.

Devices... I think most of them are quite well balanced and not overwhelming except the energy discharger. Yeah, we can't spam it, but when we use it right it can destroy multiple enemies in one go, blast stuff through rocks / walls and even be used as a mines sweeper. So long as explosions hit everything in range as it does, this weapon will remain extremely over powered.

While i like blasting foes to bits and feel unstoppable, i think some work should be done to keep things challenging as we get more powerful. Like missiles that don't track so well so enemies can evade them at time, or counter measures like shafts and flares more advanced enemies could use. Also, Some enemies should have resistance or immunities against certain types of attacks so we can't use the same tactics over and over against everything. We need more foes like the drone carrier (and Dafoe) that requires more than just brute force to beat.

Comments

  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Administrator, Moderator, Space Cat Posts: 1,110
    edited March 2017
    While I certainly agree the Early Access title requires a little more balance and modification, I am also surprised at some of the listings you made.

    With great skill, a pilot can use just about every available weapon effectively, though I'll agree some more than others. And honestly, I think one of the greatest weapons in the game is one that you don't believe is: The Coil Gun. With some tweaking to it's spread and energy conversation, it is an absolute ranged behemoth that annihilates most enemies. But again, the pilot has to know how to use it.

    Just like, well, any other weapon made available to them. Especially the secondaries, which I will agree are a bit powerful.

    Though, I'd rather see missiles do less damage before "missing" is included. It's never fun to miss, especially when you lock on. But it's fun to dodge a missile as a player, so even though the missile mechanic isn't fair between player versus AI, that's also the point. Player always hits, player has a chance to dodge.

    Good feedback overall! Thank you for posting.

  • WjndWalk3rWjndWalk3r Member Posts: 13
    I think most of weapon give you an edge in an 1v1 or just 1v2 on low to mid sector. Later on even a single drone require some flak cannon shot to take it down while ton of other swarm to you. I feel like it's so great that at later of the game, each equipment, weapon on your ship rely on each other to fight off enemies. There will be balance this, balance that on the game, it's still early access, but i don't feel any weapon OP right now and things just too easy at few first sector or easy difficult.
  • ForavenForaven Member Posts: 121
    edited March 2017


    With great skill, a pilot can use just about every available weapon effectively, though I'll agree some more than others. And honestly, I think one of the greatest weapons in the game is one that you don't believe is: The Coil Gun. With some tweaking to it's spread and energy conversation, it is an absolute ranged behemoth that annihilates most enemies. But again, the pilot has to know how to use it.

    My gripe with that weapon is it's useless without mods (poor accuracy, poor DPS, drain energy fast). Sure, when you have the blueprints and the resources, you can tune it to be great. But when you get it on your first few runs, there are much more effective weapons to use that don't need as much tweaking.

    Just like, well, any other weapon made available to them. Especially the secondaries, which I will agree are a bit powerful.

    Though, I'd rather see missiles do less damage before "missing" is included. It's never fun to miss, especially when you lock on. But it's fun to dodge a missile as a player, so even though the missile mechanic isn't fair between player versus AI, that's also the point. Player always hits, player has a chance to dodge.
    Yeah but it also feel ridiculous when you can shoot missiles at enemies behind you and they still get hit (ie player missiles can make u turns). Also, once you have access to heavy and corrosive missiles, there is no point in keeping light and anti-shields ones since the former are clearly better. It would make sense the better, more powerful missiles not to be as good as the small ones at catching fast targets, or that some more powerful enemies might be next to immune to certain types of missiles. Personally i prefer missiles to do lots of damage (ie, 1 or 2 is enough) with a chance to miss or be shot down if poorly used than always hit missiles that may just tickles the stronger enemies. Secondaries should not just be a matter of managing supplies (ie how many you have or can make) but also cleverly pick what enemies to use them on.

  • ForavenForaven Member Posts: 121

    I think most of weapon give you an edge in an 1v1 or just 1v2 on low to mid sector. Later on even a single drone require some flak cannon shot to take it down while ton of other swarm to you. I feel like it's so great that at later of the game, each equipment, weapon on your ship rely on each other to fight off enemies. There will be balance this, balance that on the game, it's still early access, but i don't feel any weapon OP right now and things just too easy at few first sector or easy difficult.

    One thing i noticed while playing is that when i have to choose what weapons to keep, certain weapons clearly are much better that others. For example Flaks are a keeper since they are so effective against a wide array of enemies (especially swarms of them) and can do splash damage through walls/rocks. On other hand, gatlings, scatter guns and pulse lasers are not as great, beam lasers and shock rifles are way more effective, even without any mods on. The same can be said for secondaries, torpedoes, heavy missiles and corrosive missiles are way better than anti-shields and light missiles (damage wise) and you have no reason to keep the weaker missiles once you can get a steady supply of the big ones.

    I know mods, perks and enhancements, as well as what devices we have can change how great certain combos of weapons can be. When skilled enough any weapons in the game can be good, it's just that i feel there should be some changes. I don't think every weapons should be equal, but that every one of them has a definite use even when better ones are around. Like for example, if gatlings and pulse lasers had lower energy requirements than shock rifles, flaks and beam lasers, the reason to keep them around would be energy saving (ie even fully modded they would not drain energy as fast as the others).
  • WjndWalk3rWjndWalk3r Member Posts: 13
    edited March 2017
    Foraven said:

    One thing i noticed while playing is that when i have to choose what weapons to keep, certain weapons clearly are much better that others. For example Flaks are a keeper since they are so effective against a wide array of enemies (especially swarms of them) and can do splash damage through walls/rocks. On other hand, gatlings, scatter guns and pulse lasers are not as great, beam lasers and shock rifles are way more effective, even without any mods on. The same can be said for secondaries, torpedoes, heavy missiles and corrosive missiles are way better than anti-shields and light missiles (damage wise) and you have no reason to keep the weaker missiles once you can get a steady supply of the big ones.

    I know mods, perks and enhancements, as well as what devices we have can change how great certain combos of weapons can be. When skilled enough any weapons in the game can be good, it's just that i feel there should be some changes. I don't think every weapons should be equal, but that every one of them has a definite use even when better ones are around. Like for example, if gatlings and pulse lasers had lower energy requirements than shock rifles, flaks and beam lasers, the reason to keep them around would be energy saving (ie even fully modded they would not drain energy as fast as the others).

    All you said it's just the difference about weapons characteristic and in the game, it's just your playstyle. I'm using gunship and using Beam laser for prescission shooting crate and long range dps since the flak shooting crate it's suck. And i use scrater charge for dealing with webbing and other annoying drone and finally the Flak for burst dps when enemy orbiting me or broken shield enemy. I'm prefer anti-shield for all heavy shielded enemy including corvett. Other big missile are so slow and can be shootable by enemy easily. And one more thing, those "weaker" weapon you said, it's give from the very beginning of the game, it's for new comer learn how to use those basic, first few games without perk do you think it's a good idea to have coil rifle or flak cannon or where will they got blueprint and resource to craft more big misslle ?
  • ForavenForaven Member Posts: 121
    edited March 2017


    All you said it's just the difference about weapons characteristic and in the game, it's just your playstyle. I'm using gunship and using Beam laser for prescission shooting crate and long range dps since the flak shooting crate it's suck. And i use scrater charge for dealing with webbing and other annoying drone and finally the Flak for burst dps when enemy orbiting me or broken shield enemy. I'm prefer anti-shield for all heavy shielded enemy including corvett. Other big missile are so slow and can be shootable by enemy easily. And one more thing, those "weaker" weapon you said, it's give from the very beginning of the game, it's for new comer learn how to use those basic, first few games without perk do you think it's a good idea to have coil rifle or flak cannon or where will they got blueprint and resource to craft more big misslle ?

    Nah, it isn't just a playstyle thing, i can do fine with every weapons in the game, and often do for the novelty. But certain weapons are just easier to use or more versatile. When you have low supplies, limited energy or few slots to spare, that's when you see some loadouts makes much more sense than others. Once we have fully upgraded ships it matters a lot less.

    Just a few comments here.

    Scatter guns: did you know they are probably the best weapons to shoot at incoming missiles with? Biggest problem with them is they are short range, they lose a lot of appeal when you can't stay close enough to use them. Found that the hard way when trying to use the mk2 variant when my interceptor wasn't fast enough to chase down okkars circling around me.

    Big missiles easily shot down: Yup, if you shot them at enemies shooting at you, odds are high they will blow in your face. But it's easy to shoot from an angle and avoid the barrage of weapon fire that could destroy them. Also, besides torpedoes, they never miss. AIs currently can't target missiles (or torpedoes) unless they are anti-missiles drones.

    Flaks Mk1 vs Mk2: Mk1 are slow to fire and have a low DPS, but they do lots of damage per hits and have a huge splash radius. They are extremely good at blasting drones, often batch of them. Mk2 on other hand have DPS, but short range and half the blast radius and thus a lot less effective at destroying annoying drones and weaker foes. For some reason Mk2 are way more likely to explode in our face than the Mk1, not sure why. Mk1 flaks are way better than scatter guns at killing annoying webber drones.

    Killing corvettes: The best corvette killers are fusion blasters mk2 and torpedoes, hand down. Fusion blasters mk2, even stock, can outdo the corvettes regen. Torpedoes, so long as they reach them (ie not shoot them through the barrage of blaster fire), do massive damage and 4-5 of them do the trick, especially if you are shooting guns as well.

    Edit: Even simplier, corrosion missiles. They ignore shields and will melt corvettes given some time. Only need a few of them.
  • DeathpactDeathpact Member Posts: 29
    I agree with the original poster. I think weapons all need to find their niche. This game is a sort of FPS but in a ship... in good fps like Quake 3 (my reference) each and every weapon has its use. Even the basic chain gun is useful when shooting from afar at a weakened enemy...

    When it comes to missiles, i think they should be a resource you don't want to use on every occasion. I like the fact that i am thinking, in the midst of the fight, i need to take that one out fast... let's use a missile.

    So the cost of missiles is an important factor here. Maybe the pilot perks need to be looked at too so you don't become so Rich, the resource management of missiles is "removed from the game" and you can just spam them all you want.

    Also Plasma torpedoes cost twice as much as Heavy missiles and much more plasma (4 times) and they don't have homing and they don't even do twice the damage. That means 2 heavy missiles do more damage and are cheaper than one torpedo...
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Administrator, Moderator, Space Cat Posts: 1,110
    Deathpact said:

    I think weapons all need to find their niche. This game is a sort of FPS but in a ship... in good fps like Quake 3 (my reference) each and every weapon has its use. Even the basic chain gun is useful when shooting from afar at a weakened enemy[.]

    Gatling Gun, Pulse Laser, Beam Laser, Flak Cannon, Shock Rifle, Scatter Gun, Coil Gun, Thermal Gun, Fusion Blaster...each one of these weapons are unique in how they handle scenarios and can be useful depending on what situation you're facing. Furthermore, each weapon has a second variation (mark IIs). I think it's safe to say Everspace's primary weapons have found their niche.

    Regarding secondaries, though...well, that's a bit of a tricky one.
    Deathpact said:

    Also Plasma torpedoes cost twice as much as Heavy missiles and much more plasma (4 times) and they don't have homing and they don't even do twice the damage. That means 2 heavy missiles do more damage and are cheaper than one torpedo...

    Perhaps we should further the discussion regarding secondaries in this thread?
  • DeathpactDeathpact Member Posts: 29
    well maybe it is just me but when I get Beam laser 2, I never bother with Gatling gun or Scatter gun... I find the close combat performances it has to be outstanding compared to specialised armor weapons and you don't need to switch weapons wich add to its effectiveness...

    I agree all the weapons have their own "identity" but you are limited in the amount you can carry, wich is not the case in most fps... also maybe the different fight situations in a space shooter are maybe not as many as a normal first person shooter ?

    I think you should be rewarded with good weapon switching... and you are to a certain degree in everspace... but not as much as in a quake deathmatch... maybe it is asking too much... i'm just giving my feeling in hope to help you better the game (wich i love) maybe it would be nice to be able to carry as many primary weapon as you want...I know it might not be "realistic" but if the gameplay is made better i think it is worth it
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Administrator, Moderator, Space Cat Posts: 1,110
    Certainly, and we're all about improving gameplay. :smile:

    I'll admit I usually replace the Gatling Gun 9 out of 10 runs because the leading can become cumbersome (perhaps it should have a damage or velocity increase?), but that Scatter Gun at close range is absolutely devastating (whether the enemy has shields or not).

    Since there are five main details to worry about dealing with an enemy (shields, hull, distance, energy, leading), what do you think could further reward skillful weapon switching?
  • troopitroopi Member Posts: 83
    I find the weapons perfectly balanced. Of course, there are weapons more powerful, and that's a thing on every game. Like the ARC is a kind of Quake's BFG.
    What the game needs to stop all this talk about balanced weapons, and since it's a single player game (no metas, grievers and the like required), is more different enemies. Tougher enemies, like big alien space creatures, mother ships, okkar destroyers, gunboats, okkar battleships with rows of flak guns... heavy duty stuff to stop players from wondering what weapon to use and just start shooting for their lives.
  • ForavenForaven Member Posts: 121


    Since there are five main details to worry about dealing with an enemy (shields, hull, distance, energy, leading), what do you think could further reward skillful weapon switching?

    To increase the need of skillful switching we need enemies that requires timing to damage, have high resilience or can't be continuously shot at. Most enemies in the game can be defeated by simply using brute force (damage buff, secondaries, fully upgraded weapons). Once we become powerful we need less and less to switch weapons. To fix that we need more enemies that have strong shields (or shields that recover quickly), can heal their hull, have temporary invulnerability, can cloak, can run away (or can keep their distance), can overpower the player if not dealt with quickly, have synergies with other npcs that must be broken... And of course enemies that can properly react to what we do to them thus we have to outsmart them to win.



  • Mr. MagniloquentMr. Magniloquent Member Posts: 20
    The coil gun is truly the all around best weapon--particularly Coil Gun II variant. I think my favorite is still the Shock Rifle I, though. The Fusion Blasters could use an improvement in range/velocity. I also strongly feel that the Spread Mod and Velocity Mod should be combined into an "Accuracy Mod". They are otherwise, almost always, suboptimal choices. Furthermore, it's a bit counter-intuitive how the Scout cannot utilize close range bruisers like the Scatter Gun nor Fusion Blaster, or how the Gunship cannot use the best ranged weapons. Those comments aside, I feel the weapons are very balanced.
  • ForavenForaven Member Posts: 121

    I also strongly feel that the Spread Mod and Velocity Mod should be combined into an "Accuracy Mod". They are otherwise, almost always, suboptimal choices.

    I disagree. Those mods are less power hungry while making more of your shots reach the target. They are must have for gatlings, scatter guns, pulse lasers and fusion blasters : they make them much more powerful without altering their DPS at all.



  • Mr. MagniloquentMr. Magniloquent Member Posts: 20
    Foraven said:

    I also strongly feel that the Spread Mod and Velocity Mod should be combined into an "Accuracy Mod". They are otherwise, almost always, suboptimal choices.

    I disagree. Those mods are less power hungry while making more of your shots reach the target. They are must have for gatlings, scatter guns, pulse lasers and fusion blasters : they make them much more powerful without altering their DPS at all.



    While they do generally cost less than other upgrades and consume less energy--they are ultimately superfluous to any player who adequate understands the weapon they are using. About the only time the spread mod is useful, is when you're trying to pump your range on a Flak Cannon or Coil Gun. Even then, it's difficult to say that the accuracy is superior to say...an extra 300km of time to have a target within range.

    The velocity mod is...questionable in value. At medium range is can be useful in the higher difficulties when enemies are more evasive; however, anyone that can survive on hard (where it is useful) will have enough skill/experience to effectively lead a target and use a weapon within its effective range. While it is true that the velocity and spread mods have their use, they are independently almost always an inferior choice to any other mod. Merging them would go a long way in terms of providing a real value, as well as significantly improving the usefulness of niche weapons like the Gatling Gun and Fusion Blasters.
  • ForavenForaven Member Posts: 121


    While they do generally cost less than other upgrades and consume less energy--they are ultimately superfluous to any player who adequate understands the weapon they are using. About the only time the spread mod is useful, is when you're trying to pump your range on a Flak Cannon or Coil Gun. Even then, it's difficult to say that the accuracy is superior to say...an extra 300km of time to have a target within range.

    Suboptimal? Having less shots spreading around the target and needing a lot less to lead the target is far more useful to me than having more range or damage. Also, using less energy means i have more to boost or can use my weapons longer before i have to use an energy injection. That has nothing to do with "knowing" how to use a weapon but more about how we prefer to use it. I don't like having to lead a lot nor having to be ultra close to ensure i do maximum damage.
  • Mr. MagniloquentMr. Magniloquent Member Posts: 20
    Foraven said:


    While they do generally cost less than other upgrades and consume less energy--they are ultimately superfluous to any player who adequate understands the weapon they are using. About the only time the spread mod is useful, is when you're trying to pump your range on a Flak Cannon or Coil Gun. Even then, it's difficult to say that the accuracy is superior to say...an extra 300km of time to have a target within range.

    Suboptimal? Having less shots spreading around the target and needing a lot less to lead the target is far more useful to me than having more range or damage. Also, using less energy means i have more to boost or can use my weapons longer before i have to use an energy injection. That has nothing to do with "knowing" how to use a weapon but more about how we prefer to use it. I don't like having to lead a lot nor having to be ultra close to ensure i do maximum damage.
    I disagree. Leading is only important in a dogfight. Enemies only maneuver after their first pass. Nearly all dogfighting happens within <1km, which is within the effective range of nearly all close quarter weapons. Spread and velocity are only important when you are the fringe of your maximum range. With the exception of perhaps Okkar Interceptors, nearly all enemies stay well within 1km when engaging. This strongly diminishes the value of the Spread and Velocity mods, which only manifest their benefit when using your weapon near its maximum range. This is particularly true for spread, in my observation, that the spread value is the maximum which occurs over the length and range of the weapon. Therefore, when you increase the range of the weapon, you actually tighten/lessen the spread of the projectile. For example:

    If you have a flak cannon with 2.5 degrees of <i class="Italic">potential spread and 1900km range, but then upgrade the range to 2700km, your spread at 1900km will be significantly less than 2.5 degrees. When experimenting, the spread seems to be applied to the full range of the weapon, not the origin of the projectile. So when you increase range, you also reduce relative spread. I've experimented a lot with this when using the Flak Cannon and my findings are consistent. If I'm flat out wrong, I would love to be corrected by a Developer.

    There is significantly more value in being able to take out enemies earlier at range when they are not maneuvering, or damage them more quickly with either shield/hull damage or rate of fire mods. Success in this game is about surviving attrition and efficiency. Ultimately spread and velocity can be overcome by skill, appropriate application of the weapon, and even other mods. Velocity and spread mods only help when trying to use a weapon at its functional limits, and even then, less optimally than simply using other mods. I think combing the two would actually into a singular "Accuracy" mod would be much better. That's simply my opinion.
  • DeathpactDeathpact Member Posts: 29
    Well I have just started a new run after my first victorious Run with the second setup of the initial ship. I have to say i have a much much tougher time with the third setup, using Plasma gun and shotgun. I find them much more difficult to use than the shaft. (Sorry for using the quake names of the weapons, i don't remember the names from everspace ^^

  • troopitroopi Member Posts: 83
    I have been surprisingly successful by using obstacles and thermo gun. An asteroid full of holes is a beautiful place to hide, and when you don't even need to stick your nose out to shoot an enemy down, the game turns to a very different experience. B)
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