Suggestion for Roguelike Game

Roguelike game is a part of RPG, but many developers ignored it (I dont mean you!). The essence of RPG game is level, which means low-level-but-rare equipment may not more powerful than high-level-normal equipment. In GOF2, there is a level system, but it only increased enemy's HP, but you can still use high damage weapon to deal with it, so I can try to get the most powerful weapon at the beginning, then kill everyone I saw and I dont even care--I personally think this part is not very successful.
There is two ways to go. First one is like Borderlands, which every equipment has their own ability and level, so with the increasing with the enemy's HP, players have to change their equipment.
Or, being like Monster Hunter--there is no level system, but a lot of equipment. Weak monsters can only give you weak equipment, but it can support you to challenge a little bit stronger monster. If Everspace uses this kind of system, it would be like this: Killing someone in section 1, then create a gun which can kill someone in section 2 easily, but it is harmless in section 3...
All in all, please dont give players any chance to get the most powerful equipment at the beginning, or it would be very boring...

Comments

  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    edited April 2016
    I strongly disagree.

    Roguelikes and RPGs are two separate genres.

    Don't get me wrong: a roguelike can be set in a strong roleplaying world, and an RPG can have many roguelike elements. But they don't have to, and in many cases, I argue they shouldn't. The case and point here: The leveling system. (Also, Leveling ≠ Upgrading.)

    I think there shouldn't be levels on equipment or ships at all. Weapons shouldn't be powerful based on use, but based on their independent functionality AND player use. Looking at the game FTL, the (arguably) most powerful weapons in the game can START on some of the ship loadouts. Does this mean they're the best loadouts in the game? No, not at all. It just means you'll have to play to a certain strategy.

    If a player has a choice between their Level 10 Burst Laser or a newly found Level 1 Beam, they're clearly going to keep what they have based on level alone. This can frustrate players who really like using a certain weapon, then find "something better" that they don't like using. Example: I have my Level 10 Burst Laser which I love...and I just found a level 27 Dumbfire Missile. I hate using Missiles, but it's impressively better. I'm not really getting a choice in how I customize my ship; instead, I'm being forced into whatever I find, following whatever generated content I bump into.

    This is an illusion of choice. It would be entirely luck-based, like a grinding action-RPG game (Diablo, for instance). Roguelikes, while providing a lot of random content, are keen on the ability to stack the odds in your favor; in other words, customize. Sure, you can run into an unlucky scenario or find a lucky drop, but these occurrences should not be constantly making or breaking the game. There should be no ultimate weapon or optimized playstyle. The players should find their own path; that is the epitome of a roguelike.

    I should be allowed to choose between using the Burst Laser, or the Beam, or the Dumbfire Missile based on my preference and playstyle. Do I want the ability to fire faster and more consistently with the Burst Laser, or fire once very slowly but do a lot of hull damage with the Beam? Even still, do I want to rely on an ammo-dependent weapon that deals a ton of damage but has limited accuracy? One isn't better than the other; they're just different options.

    With all that being said, upgrading works fine because it is the player's decision choosing a particular route.

    Roguelikes are great about providing variety to overcome the challenges we face. I hope Everspace gives us a lot of different ways to play without having to worry about levels.
  • I strongly disagree.

    Roguelikes and RPGs are two separate genres.

    Don't get me wrong: a roguelike can be set in a strong roleplaying world, and an RPG can have many roguelike elements. But they don't have to, and in many cases, I argue they shouldn't. The case and point here: The leveling system. (Also, Leveling ≠ Upgrading.)

    I think there shouldn't be levels on equipment or ships at all. Weapons shouldn't be powerful based on use, but based on their independent functionality AND player use. Looking at the game FTL, the (arguably) most powerful weapons in the game can START on some of the ship loadouts. Does this mean they're the best loadouts in the game? No, not at all. It just means you'll have to play to a certain strategy.

    If a player has a choice between their Level 10 Burst Laser or a newly found Level 1 Beam, they're clearly going to keep what they have based on level alone. This can frustrate players who really like using a certain weapon, then find "something better" that they don't like using. Example: I have my Level 10 Burst Laser which I love...and I just found a level 27 Dumbfire Missile. I hate using Missiles, but it's impressively better. I'm not really getting a choice in how I customize my ship; instead, I'm being forced into whatever I find, following whatever generated content I bump into.

    This is an illusion of choice. It would be entirely luck-based, like a grinding action-RPG game (Diablo, for instance). Roguelikes, while providing a lot of random content, are keen on the ability to stack the odds in your favor; in other words, customize. Sure, you can run into an unlucky scenario or find a lucky drop, but these occurrences should not be constantly making or breaking the game. There should be no ultimate weapon or optimized playstyle. The players should find their own path; that is the epitome of a roguelike.

    I should be allowed to choose between using the Burst Laser, or the Beam, or the Dumbfire Missile based on my preference and playstyle. Do I want the ability to fire faster and more consistently with the Burst Laser, or fire once very slowly but do a lot of hull damage with the Beam? Even still, do I want to rely on an ammo-dependent weapon that deals a ton of damage but has limited accuracy? One isn't better than the other; they're just different options.

    With all that being said, upgrading works fine because it is the player's decision choosing a particular route.

    Roguelikes are great about providing variety to overcome the challenges we face. I hope Everspace gives us a lot of different ways to play without having to worry about levels.

    Yeah as I said like monster hunter, the no-level game is also fun. The level is just a kind of suggestion for game makers, and my key point is the last sentence, "dont give players any chance to get the most powerful equipment at the beginning, or it would be very boring". in your point, you also said it is important to enjoy upgrading yourself--"by choosing the way", and that's the problem of GOF2, because the weapons has low balance, the most powerful weapon and equipment exists, and even you can obtain them at the very beginning of the game, and that caused the game boring (a kind of). My ideal balance is like Elite:Dangerous, which is the equipment has their weight and power consumption, and players must judge by themselves, and that's what i want to see in this game.
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    Ziyang said:

    My ideal balance is like Elite:Dangerous, which is the equipment has their weight and power consumption, and players must judge by themselves, and that's what i want to see in this game.

    Ah, yes. Agreed with you for sure.
  • LiberTeaLiberTea Posts: 24Member, Common Alpha Backer

    Ziyang said:

    My ideal balance is like Elite:Dangerous, which is the equipment has their weight and power consumption, and players must judge by themselves, and that's what i want to see in this game.

    Ah, yes. Agreed with you for sure.
    This would kind of require a more in depth loadout system (as in weapon slots that you can fill, maybe sometimes you want to use all say 4 slots and sometimes you might just want to use 2 because the weapon is too energy hungry etc.). However I would very much approve of this.
    Maybe even allow people to shoot 2 diffrent weapons at the same time. (say a beam and the gattling, sure they wont always both hit (beam is hitscan gatling is projectile) but that would be my choice).
  • GiraffasaurGiraffasaur Posts: 1,098Moderator, Space Cat
    LiberTea said:

    Maybe even allow people to shoot 2 diffrent weapons at the same time. (say a beam and the gattling, sure they wont always both hit (beam is hitscan gatling is projectile) but that would be my choice).

    Two weapons at the same time sounds incredible, but I feel like there should be some kind of repercussion for that. Maybe the energy expense would be enough?

    That said, I think some kind of ship augment would have to be found in order to pull off this feat.
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